Carter Van Pelt talks to New York producer and artist, Ticklah, about his love for reggae music, the recording process, making creatively progressive music, and some of his many and varied projects.
You are one of a handful of non-Jamaican reggae producers who have a great reverence (hope that’s not an overstatement) for the aesthetic of some of the better Jamaican music and the production process that helped give it an identity.
What are some of the aspects of Jamaican recording and the music itself, that initially hooked you, and what have you grown to appreciate that maybe you didn’t immediately notice or appreciate?
“Reverence” wouldn’t be an overstatement at all in my case. That’s exactly what I feel about what you refer to as the “better” Jamaican music. It’s hard for me to say what initially hooked me, other than that feeling that probably most people who are not born into an environment where reggae is what they grow up with feel if and when they get hit by reggae. Something like “Damn! This feels different from everything else I’ve heard…and I love it! More!”.
I was at summer camp when I was probably around 10 years old and I remember passing by a tent where one of the counselors was taking a nap with his boom box playing, and he had on Marley’s Rastaman Vibration. I stood outside his tent and listened for a while, and at the time it was the sonic equivalent of watching a movie in color for the first time after having watched black and white your whole life.
I still get that feeling if for some reason I’ve gone a while without hearing reggae (like if I’m busy working in some musical context that takes me away for a while. It’s rare but it happens) and then go back to listening to reggae. To me the music just fits together in a way that gels like nothing else.
Things that took time for me to appreciate was just how drastically different reggae sounds from so much other music from a technical or engineering standpoint. I could hear and feel the recordings had their own flavor that made them obviously distinctive from other styles, but as they years go by and I learn more about the engineering side, the more I’ve grown to appreciate just how unique it all is sonically.
Also as a kid I didn’t fully appreciate just how amazing the musicianship was on the records I listened to. It’d be easy to key on Carlton Barrett’s genius for example, but less so for everyone else. That’s all changed as the years passed. Musicianship in reggae is a very understated thing, so when you’re young it’s harder to appreciate how amazing these musicians were.
Lyrically too, as a kid I could get the gist of some of the messages in the music but it wasn’t exactly the thing that grabbed me. Growing older and becoming generally disgusted by how completely out of step mankind is with itself and the planet, I grew to love the songs that dealt with humanity, love and compassion etc. and of course Babylon.
But in general I feel like there’s always new things about the music that I notice and fascinate me. Once you’re inside of it (reggae) it’s so vast how much variety there is to enjoy. There’s all kinds of nuance you can gravitate towards or away from depending on your taste.
Talk about your studio and your recording process, what do you do in the analog realm and what do you do in the digital realm and how do you get the best of both worlds (to quote another Derrick Harriott song)?
I’ve got a modest space that suits my needs. I can record a small rhythm section, and later break down the drums and do horn overdubs or vocals etc. If it’s a live kind of thing I’m usually trying to record at least the bass, drums, guitar, and maybe a few other things to tape before I transfer it to the computer and do the rest of my overdubs in the box.
I do believe that tape machines sound better than computers, but for my “process” working with a computer is great and I can’t get away from it. I really work a lot in the computer but I’ve always worked with a mixing board and outboard equipment. I’ve done a few things where I might do a bunch of the eqing in the box, but after trying that for a while I realised that I’m better suited to working with real equipment and just use the computers for arranging, editing, mild processing and of course playback.
It’s taken me quite a while to learn about the engineering aspect of things. I’ve done a lot of recording where I was just happy to hear something resembling what I played come back at me after I’d hit record. But as a result I’ve made many if not all of the amateur engineering mistakes, and gradually have taken things more seriously regarding understanding mics, placement, what gear is gonna give me what I want. It’s taken a while but I’d like to think I’m getting the hang of it little by little.
I must say though that the quality of plug-ins just get better, so they can be really helpful in getting things to where I want them. But when it comes to instruments, for the most part I use old drums, old basses, old organs, real piano, etc. The character of real instruments always wins with me no matter how good the vintage organ patch is etc. I’ve experimented with a lot of those things and like I said, the new digital stuff sounds better and better, but in the end the real thing trumps the imitation for me 95 percent of the time.
It should go without saying but it probably should be said anyway, and that is that while the equipment and gear choices are plenty important, what’s probably more important is having musicians who play well together executing strong musical ideas. Sounds a lot easier than it is.
Do you think that nostalgia can compromise creativity, that is to say, being so focused on an older analog aesthetic, how do you make creatively progressive music?
Obviously your music does have its own identity, rather than being strictly archeological. What do you feel you’ve been able to bring to the table that gives your music an identity?
Well keep in mind that for myself and the many people I work with who make music that is clearly informed, influenced and shaped in the mode of music from the past, there’s no nostalgia. The music was either made before we were all alive or if it’d come out in our lifetime it wasn’t part of our awareness at that moment in time or both.
But not to get hung up on semantics, I think I get what you’re asking. I can’t speak for everyone in my little world, but I think what’s been going on with myself and others that I work with it is that we’ve simply been honoring and responding to what appeals to our sensibilities in regards to how to shape ideas, how to play your instrument, what specific kind of instrument one should play, what the vibe and texture of the final mix should be etc. So there’s definitely a focus on past sounds, and method but what happens after that just is what it is. If that’s not “progressive” no one on my side of the fence is particularly concerned.
I think the idea of creatively progressive music is overrated. Sometimes “progress” can happen if certain things line up just so, and if it does and it comes out “good” then everyone is lucky. I don’t know if “progress” in music is something that you can chase or make your goal. For me the goal isn’t so much for what I make to have it’s own identity (nice of you to say it does!), so much as it is to just follow through where my instincts take me given the song at hand, and hopefully make something that people enjoy.
I really don’t know what I’m bringing to the table that’d give my music it’s own identity. I think if I am in fact doing that, someone else would be better suited to explain what that is.
Actually a slight tangent here, I do know that I’m doing my best to not give in to mixing and mastering my music in this over the top bright, maxed out, compressed way which has become the norm for modern ears. That shit sounds horrible and I do everything I can to make music that sounds like it’s been made for people who still have their hearing intact and enjoy hearing some dimension in music!
This whole rationale of mixing and mastering with the idea that it’ll sound banging coming off of laptop speakers, ear-buds, or computer speakers is messed up. It still sounds bad coming off laptop speakers!
But back to your question, I don’t get hung up on whether or not something I’m doing sounds old or not at all progressive. I just try to make whatever I’m working on good enough so that someone might feel compelled to listen to it more than once.
But that actually points to other things in music that I love. I love the way music can be layered and contain different textures, melodies, and rhythms that one might not notice right away, but upon further listens are there to be experienced.
To connect that with your mention of music that’s “archeological”, I think that there is an archeological way that I might go about things at times. Just in the sense that I look to recordings of the past to learn their specific lessons.
I recognize that for myself the lessons I’m interested in learning are in these older records, where in my opinion the musicianship was better, the engineering was better, the arrangement ideas speak to me, etc. It’s rare that I’m ever taken with any recent recordings, so I don’t spend my time seeking them out. Once and a while I’ll hear something that really stands out to me, but it’s usually a single track or two here and there.
I know you as a perfectionist. How have you learned to deal with that as you’ve grown older, in order to allow yourself to get work done and not overanalyze it to the point that you drive yourself crazy.
Maybe you still do, but I can imagine it’s a bit of a battle.
Oh I can still make myself a bit miserable with almost any stage of the process. Usually the rough patches for me are filling in a textural or melodic idea that I know is out there if I can just find it (the things I was talking about above). That kind of stuff and mixing.
I’m happy to report I’ve had some mixing experiences in the past couple of years where I was able to get the mix done without falling into the abyss! But I’ve mixed so much music where I really didn’t know what I was doing, and like I mentioned above I’m learning all the time so hopefully the worst days of mixing are behind me.
What sucks for me though is when I do have a feeling that there’s a better melody, or counterpoint, or texture out there to be had for what I’m working on, I get really hung up on it and sometimes those details don’t reveal themselves for a while. Like a very long while. But I just keep fishing around till it comes together. In the end I’m always happy I took the time and persisted.
What was the most miserable project you’ve ever worked on and how do you feel about it after some time has passed?
I can’t speak to being miserable for a whole project thankfully, but mixing “Two Face” from my last album was probably the most devastating mixing experience ever for me. I think I gave up two or three times mixing that song, worked on something else for my album, and then finally got it finished.
In retrospect I realise that part of what I was fighting was the fact that I was working with a cheap computer interface at the time and the sounds quality was just awful. But back then I was working with this ethos that took me a long time to shed, which was that I never blamed my equipment as a reason for something not sounding great. I knew I wasn’t working a really great interface, but I had no idea just how much it was hindering me.
Actually that applies to the whole Ticklah vs. Axelrod album. I’d just moved to working with computers for that album, and I have a deep regret that I didn’t know more about all the things that go into getting things to sound good in that realm, as it affected the sound of the album as a whole.
Now that some time has passed it is still a painful memory! I’m happy with that one musically but it’s tough for me to listen to. But some people like that track and that’s all that matters.
What was the most enjoyable project you’ve worked on and how do you feel about it now that some time has passed, assuming you didn’t do it yesterday?
Again I can’t really speak to a whole project, but I can cite a couple of songs where the overall experience was particular enjoyable all around. The song “Rescue Me” off Ticklah vs. Axelrod came together like a dream, between tracking the music and then eventually working with Mikey General, who is a very warm and humble person, and quick in the studio. I still really love the feeling of the music on that track years later. Of course I wish I’d mixed it better, haha!
Something completely different but also a very satisfying experience was a couple of years ago, me and some of the guys from the Dap-Kings went to New Orleans to make a song for a movie. Mark Ronson was producing and Zigaboo Modeliste of the Meters was playing drums. Erykah Badu would be singing on the track we made. Ronson came in with a few chords that would serve as the basis we’d work from. Us guys in the rhythm section got to it and came up with some good stuff before too long, and we got to tracking.
I played a lot of piano on that one and I’m rarely that psyched about my own playing, but I was pleased with how I did. Getting to play with Zigaboo and my friends in New Orleans and coming up with some good shit!? A very satisfying feeling indeed! The next day Badu came in and wrote her part, tracked it, and then we all went to Preservation Hall to perform it! It was an amazing two days that went without a hitch. Simple enough, but it was an interesting combination of experiences in the first place.
How important is living and working in New York and Brooklyn?
It’s important in that I’m in close proximity to the people I work with regularly and of course family and friends, but I can’t say New York and Brooklyn has much “vibe” anymore. I’m from here and can’t help but feel it to be my home, but it’s changed a lot
While I don’t have much romanticism about the old New York, I do feel that the new New York and Brooklyn feels corny. Luxury apartments galore, affordable housing scarce. While parts of the city are cleaner and safer than they’ve ever been, it’s been made that way for newcomers with money to enjoy, not New Yorkers who’ve been here for generations. You know, the typical trajectory of gentrification.
Some of my personal favorite things you’ve done were the tracks with Mayra. Don’t you still have some work in the cookie jar with her? Tell people about her and the nature of her talent.
To use your own words, she is what you’d call a natural talent. She’s not a “professional” singer in the sense that she sings or performs or collaborates vocally in any consistent way. But it was her idea for me to cover the songs we did, and she can sing and act and write. I do have another track with her which I’d love to finish, but more pressing projects keep coming along that have prevented me from finishing that.
Talk about working with Uzimon.
Ganja and punanny abound.
Talk about working with Sugar Minott.
I’ve recorded him three or four times. I’d been a fan of his for so long, I found it really strange to be in a setting where I was producing. Carter, you were there the first time he came to my studio for the session which yielded “Praise His Name”.
That time I didn’t have to really produce because he was just on fire. He listened to my track on loop for a long time and wrote his song, and he pretty much knew what to do and how to do it, and all I had to do was hit the record button and witness his greatness.
The other times I had him over I’d picked out songs for him to cover. Soul tunes that he was vaguely familiar with. Those sessions were much more challenging, because at each of those sessions we’d bump heads a bit, and it was the most awkward feeling to be in a moment of tense disagreement with one of your favorite singers.
In each instance though, we’d eventually reach some breakthrough moment where he’d understand what I was going for. Once I was able to get us on that same page his demeanor would shift immediately and he’d just trust me for the rest of the session, and from there we just flowed together really well. That was a great feeling.
Once we got rolling he never seemed interested in taking a break. I noticed this and mentioned something to him like “man you’re tireless!”, and he just shrugged and said, “I love my work.”
He passed just a few months after the last time I’d worked with him. Actually my last moments with him were in my living room after the session watching a Lina Wertmuller movie which he was really enjoying, yelling out “MADMAN DAT!”. A very funny moment, you had to be there kinda thing.
I’d performed with him back in 1999 too and that was a very memorable evening. He just killed it. It was one of those rare gigs where all the musicians onstage were kinda grinning ear to ear the whole show cause it was so damn good!
Talk about the role you played on the Amy Winehouse album and how you feel about that.
My only role was that I played piano on the songs Mark Ronson produced, which makes up about half of the Back to Black album.
Those sessions were really the beginning of me and musicians in the Daptone family getting calls from the outside world to do session work. It’s interesting that that particular session ended up being part of the record that’s bigger than anything we’d been a part of to that point or since, but the significance of that session for me had less to do with Amy and more to do with our relationship with Ronson. He enjoyed working with us so much, that since then he’s called upon us for all kinds of session work.
I really enjoy doing sessions with those musicians. We’ve played together for years so there’s great chemistry between us, but with Ronson we’re doing something outside of what we normally do stylistically. Actually the Amy record is a great example of that. We’d never actually played those specific kinds of things, but her music was in the same family of what we already did so it was a stretch but not a big one. Since then we’ve been pushed much further which I like.
What are five reggae records that remind you why you get up in the morning?
This list isn’t exactly the answer to what you’re asking but…
- Pass It On – Wailers (JAD version, not the version on the Burnin album!)
- No Cup No Brook – African Brothers
- Didn’t I (Bunny Lee produced version)- Cornell Campbell
- Promises – The Ethiopians
- Objection Overuled – Gregory Isaacs
What’s your favorite Saturday morning radio program?
Eastern Standard Time of course! WKCR – stream it people! You’ll always hear all kinds of things you never heard before.
More info:
Ticklah SoundCloud
Victor Axelrod Instagram
